Nov. 19, 2025
Michael Wolff’s Messy Attempt to Explain Why He Was Helping Epstein
This episode starts with a line that should make anyone in communications sit up a little straighter. Michael Wolff, a bestselling Trump biographer and longtime access journalist, emailed Jeffrey Epstein with strategic advice about how Epstein could handle questions about Donald Trump. Not expose him. Not confront him. Advise him.
And now, those emails are a crisis in themselves.
Today’s episode focuses on the messaging behind Wolff’s interactions with Epstein. Not the salacious details, not the conspiracy theories, not the internet rabbit holes. We’re talking about messaging, influence, framing, and the ethical gray zones revealed in more than 20,000 Epstein-related documents released by the House Oversight Committee.
To break this down, we look closely at a long on-air conversation from The Daily Beast’s emergency podcast episode featuring Wolff and host Joanna Coles. She pressed him hard. He tried to explain, defend, and reframe. And what he said on that podcast is, frankly, a crisis-communication case study in real time.
In this episode:
• How Wolff’s emails show him acting less like a journalist and more like a strategist
• The moment Wolff tells Epstein how to "let Trump hang himself"
• Why Wolff’s "I was the lone truth-teller" explanation is classic crisis reframing
• The ethical tension between ingratiation and complicity
• Why these emails matter for media credibility at a moment when Pew Research shows public trust is scraping the floor
• How Wolff’s relationship with Epstein may have shaped four Trump books
• The danger of access journalism becoming influence management
• Why everyone else in Epstein’s orbit is silent, and Wolff is the only one talking
• The deeper question: what happens when the people tasked with revealing power start acting like they’re part of it?
This episode is about messaging and the moral tradeoffs behind it.
It’s about the ugly truth of proximity to power.
And it’s about what happens when a journalist crosses the line from observing a crisis...into participating in one.
Links Mentioned:
• The Daily Beast interview with Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles
• Pew Research Center: "Americans’ Views of the News Media" (2023)
Want More Behind the Breakdown?
Follow The PR Breakdown with Molly McPherson on Substack for early access to podcast episodes, exclusive member chats, weekly lives, and monthly workshops that go deeper than the mic. It's the insider’s hub for communicators who want strategy with spine—and a little side-eye where it counts.
Follow Molly on Substack
Subscribe to Molly's Weekly Newsletter
Subscribe to Molly's Live Events Calendar.
Need a Keynote Speaker? Drawing from real-world PR battles, Molly delivers the same engaging stories and hard-won crisis insights from the podcast to your live audience. Click here to book Molly for your next meeting.
This podcast is supported by Muck Rack, the PR management platform I use to monitor media coverage, track journalist activity, and inform high-stakes strategy with real-time data. Click here to try Muck Rack for yourself.
Follow & Connect with Molly:
00:00 - The Email That Sparked A Fire
01:14 - Why Focus On Messaging, Not Gossip
02:24 - Wolff’s Emails As Strategy, Not Reporting
04:51 - The Interview With Joanna Coles
06:05 - Classic Crisis Framing Exposed
07:45 - Playing A Role To Gain Access
09:39 - Ends Versus Means In Journalism
11:01 - Wolff’s Trump Books And Sources
12:25 - Social Media Persona And Perception
13:49 - Trust In Media Hits The Floor
15:38 - Why Outlets Passed On The Tapes
17:01 - Access Versus Complicity
18:10 - Epstein’s Broader Pattern Of Harm
19:22 - The Journalism Piece That Hurts
19:35 - Fallout And Final Takeaways
WEBVTT
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:05.599
Let's start this episode with a line that should make anyone in communication sit up a little straighter.
00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:17.199
You send an email to him saying, I hear CNN is planning to ask Trump tonight about his relationship with you, either on air or in Scrum afterwards.
00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:23.679
Um he writes back, if we were able to craft an answer for him, what do you think it would be?
00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:28.480
And then you say, I think you should let him hang himself.
00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:31.839
A journalist wrote that to Jeffrey Epstein.
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:38.479
Not about exposing him, not about confronting him, but about how Epstein should handle Donald Trump.
00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:44.880
That journalist was Michael Wolfe, a best-selling Trump biographer who built his career on access.
00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:50.079
And now the emails he sent Epstein have become their own crisis case study.
00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:56.079
In this episode of the podcast, we are looking at the messaging behind those emails.
00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:59.840
Not the salacious details, not the conspiracy theories.
00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:02.079
There are plenty of other places for that.
00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:05.840
And I feel like I've listened or watched to all of them.
00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:14.079
But if you know me, if you listen to this podcast, you know I'm always interested in the messaging and also the patterns.
00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:24.400
Let's talk about the communication patterns buried inside more than 20,000 Epstein-related documents released last week by the House Oversight Committee.
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:32.879
Files that show how Epstein operated his influence network from 2009 to the months before his 2019 arrest.
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:41.760
Because Wolf's explanation for why he sent those emails is one of the most revealing crisis management performances I've seen in a long time.
00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:46.239
It tells you as much about him as it does the emails.
00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:56.239
This week, the episode is going to focus on a long on-air conversation between Michael Wolf and Joanna Coles on the Daily Beast podcast.
00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:03.680
They released an emergency podcast because Michael Wolf was all over those emails.
00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:08.960
Joanna Coles pressed Wolf on all the emails with Jeffrey Epstein.
00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:14.319
Joanna Coles, to her credit, really pressed Wolf on these emails.
00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:24.240
And Wolf, we hear, try to explain, defend, and reframe the choices he made as a reporter who ingratiated himself with a source.
00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:28.000
The clips you'll hear come directly from that interview.
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:32.719
I have a link to this interview in the show notes.
00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:47.120
I listened to this interview last week, along with so many other podcasts and content creators and media outlets and reporters breaking down what they saw in a lot of these emails.
00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:51.840
I kept going back to Wolf because he's a journalist.
00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:56.159
And because he did this interview, I had to focus squarely on him.
00:02:56.159 --> 00:03:12.960
Even though there are a lot of other people who are wrapped up in this whole Epstein scandal, I want to focus on Wolf because he's the one who came out and did this interview with Joanna Coles, which I have to give him credit for because everybody else out there is quiet, mums the word.
00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.280
But this I found interesting.
00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:33.599
The emails that came out associated with Michael Wolf show him, yes, partly as a curious reporter, but also as a tactician, someone fluent in narrative engineering, someone willing to help Epstein shape a response to protect his own interests.
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:40.159
At one point, Wolf warns Epstein that CNN is preparing to question Trump about their relationship.
00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:51.439
You send an email to him saying, I hear CNN is planning to ask Trump tonight about his relationship with you, either on air or in Scrum afterwards.
00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:54.879
Epstein immediately asks how Trump should respond.
00:03:54.879 --> 00:04:00.400
He writes back, if we were able to craft an answer for him, what do you think it would be?
00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:05.919
And Wolf answers like someone managing a client, not interviewing a source.
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:10.800
And then you say, I think you should let him hang himself.
00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:14.719
He even frames the potential benefit if Trump lies.
00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:22.319
If he says he hasn't been on the plane or to the House, then that gives you a valuable PR and political currency.
00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:25.759
He outlines how Epstein could weaponize Trump's answer.
00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:30.800
You can hang him in a way that potentially generates a positive benefit for you.
00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:35.839
And he describes how Epstein could save Trump to create leverage.
00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:42.240
Or if it really looks like he could win, you could save him generating a debt.
00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:45.120
That's not reporting.
00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:46.639
That's message strategy.
00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:51.519
And it puts Wolf squarely inside the machine he claims to document.
00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:59.120
When Wolf was confronted about this in the interview, he did what many people under scrutiny often do.
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:04.240
I see it in the press, I see it in responses, I see it in my own job.
00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:06.000
He minimized.
00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.480
He called the emails embarrassing.
00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:12.319
He suggested anyone would rewrite an email once it became public.
00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:21.120
Yeah, of course.
00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:26.800
You know, emails always are, oh, that's that's uh that's embarrassing.
00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:29.680
Then he reframed the entire situation.
00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:35.680
He said he was in a position no one else was in, which is absolutely true.
00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:40.079
I am in this, I am where no one else is.
00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:46.480
I am in proximity to a story which actually most people don't see at this point.
00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:53.120
He cast himself as the lone truth teller, the only one who, quote, saw the elemental story.
00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:57.839
I'm the person who sees this elemental story.
00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:00.319
This is classic crisis framing.
00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:05.439
Whether Wolf was trying to do that or not, it was instinctual with him, apparently.
00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:17.600
But if your behavior looks questionable, you're elevating the mission, make it sound noble, make it sound necessary, make yourself sound like the insider who had to break the rules to expose the truth.
00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:22.160
But that's not accountability, that's self-justification.
00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:30.160
Now let's look at what Wolf really admitted, because he was insisting he was not Epstein's media advisor.
00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:39.199
In these emails, what strikes me is that you're frequently giving advice to Jeffrey Epstein about how to handle the media, how to use the media.
00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:41.360
Were you his media advisor?
00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:42.560
No, he had.
00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.800
But everything he describes next contradicts that.
00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:51.519
He explains that his media knowledge gave him credibility with Epstein.
00:06:51.519 --> 00:07:10.879
He admits he was acting and playing a role.
00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:12.879
Am I acting?
00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:14.079
Am I play acting?
00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:14.480
Right.
00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:15.120
Are you pretending to be?
00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:16.560
Am I playing a role?
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:17.600
And the answer is yes.
00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:20.879
Even brags about using charm tactically.
00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:25.680
I think as as my mother would say, you get more with a little honey.
00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:29.360
And then he reveals the core belief driving all this.
00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:37.759
This is a story that I have told as often as I can in as many places that I can.
00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:51.920
The story of Donald Trump's relationship with this pedophile, uh a story that virtually, and certainly many of the journalists that are I'm sure are now criticizing me have chosen not to pick up.
00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:53.920
And here's the ethical tension.
00:07:54.079 --> 00:08:01.439
If the ends matter more than the means start turning into excuses, and that's where Wolf lives in this story.
00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:08.879
He wants credit for telling the truth about Epstein and Trump, but he does not want accountability for how he got there.
00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:16.800
This is a point where I should add, Michael Wolf, even if you haven't heard of him, you probably have heard of him.
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:20.720
He's written a number of books about President Trump.
00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:32.080
In 2018, he wrote Fire and Fury Inside the Trump White House, 2019, Siege, Trump Under Fire, 2021, Landslide, The Final Days of the Trump Presidency.
00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:37.440
And in 2025, All or Nothing, How Trump Recaptured America.
00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:55.039
Each book offers a narrative based on interviews, inside access, and sometimes anonymous sources, which has led to the discussion about the reliability and ethics of Wolfe's reporting, especially as it relates with his connection to these Epstein emails.
00:08:55.039 --> 00:09:02.639
It makes you wonder how much of the information in these books really came from Epstein since he considered him such a key source.
00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:10.399
Since Epstein had an axe to grind against Donald Trump, it's clear that's where he's getting a lot of his access.
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:13.200
I can understand the gray area here.
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.799
Now, Michael Wolf lately has been very prolific on social media.
00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:19.039
I follow him on Instagram.
00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:22.639
His posts often reveal very inside information.
00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:24.480
It's a fascinating post to follow.
00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.360
I'll also include the link in the show notes.
00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:32.960
It's as good for the inside information as it is to see Michael Wolf's home.
00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:36.320
I believe he lives in Long Island, but his home is absolutely beautiful.
00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:39.120
And he always does these posts from different rooms.
00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:45.600
I have to be honest, many times I'm just looking at his home rather than listening to what he has to say.
00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:49.279
But here are the ethical red flags.
00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:51.360
I loved following Michael Wolf.
00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:57.759
Now, when I look at his posts, I'm always going to look at him a little bit differently.
00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:02.799
Wolf responds to criticism the same way many people do in a reputational crisis.
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:04.159
He changes the frame.
00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:06.799
He says, I'm not a pedophile, I'm a writer.
00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:09.360
I am not a pedophile, I am a writer.
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:12.399
He says he never saw girls or a massage room.
00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:14.799
You're just hearing things.
00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:21.279
So, I mean, that was I mean, my relationship with with Jeffrey Epstein did not go.
00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:32.399
I mean, actually, I have never in all of the hours that I have spent with him, I have never, never saw, saw any interaction with women.
00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:36.960
He says he stayed because he had 100 hours of Epstein talking.
00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:43.840
There are hours and hours, upwards of a hundred hours of Jeffrey Epstein talking about many things.
00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:49.039
But the absence of witnessing crimes does not absolve the presence of complicity.
00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:54.320
And his own words reveal how far he was willing to go to maintain proximity.
00:10:54.320 --> 00:11:00.799
Because once you believe the story is worth any cost, your ethics start bending without you noticing.
00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:02.559
And here's where the research comes in.
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:08.879
According to Pew Research, only 26% of Americans say they trust the information media outlets report.
00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:12.799
That was from a study in 2023.
00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:16.720
And this is why trust in journalism is scraping the floor.
00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:22.559
When reporters defend troubling behavior as just how access works, the public hears something very different.
00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:35.759
Jake Tapper learned this when he published the book Original Sin about President Joe Biden choosing to go ahead with the nomination as opposed to stepping down.
00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:43.120
Jake Tapper received a lot of blowback from other people in the press, from the public, from social media.
00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:49.519
Heck, even I experienced it when I did content just around that book, which by the way, I found that book fascinating.
00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:53.679
But a lot of people accused them of withholding information to save it for a book.
00:11:53.679 --> 00:12:02.159
And I said at the time, and I'll include a link in the show notes to my podcast about the original Sin book and the Jake Tapper issue.
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:10.960
It's that journalists nowadays, to remain relevant on air and to remain employed, they need to create caricatures for themselves.
00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:16.960
They need to have a strong social media background and also content like books to back it up.
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.639
Michael Wolfe really is no different than Jake Tapper here.
00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:25.039
However, Jake Tapper is on CNN nightly.
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:29.759
Michael Wolf is putting a lot of his energy into these books and also speaking circuits.
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:36.879
So Michael Wolf is making a lot of money on these books with his proximity to Jeffrey Epstein.
00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:48.000
But with the death of Epstein, that's another reason why Michael Wolf, you know, clearly wanted to keep this information to himself because the well with Jeffrey Epstein ran dry.
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.080
So that's why Michael Wolf is scrambling now.
00:12:52.080 --> 00:13:00.639
He's falling into the space where people in the middle of a crisis fall into when they're trying to justify why they were doing the right thing.
00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.200
The rules only matter when they're convenient.
00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:15.360
Truth is negotiable, and relationships with power matter more than ethics, which really is the story of how Jeffrey Epstein got away with everything that he did for so many years.
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:18.559
Now, why the media didn't touch the story?
00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:26.799
Wolf says he pitched these Epstein tapes everywhere to the networks, the publishers, and streaming platforms, and that everyone turned them down.
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:29.120
How many did you pitch, and how many said no?
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:31.519
Do you have any correspondence from those interactions?
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:36.639
I I I I certainly do, and everybody has been pitched.
00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:48.799
There is almost no outlet, streamers, networks, cable stations, and book publishers who has not been pitched on this story.
00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:49.679
Well, I was gonna ask.
00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:52.559
Everyone saying no.
00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:56.159
He says they feared lawsuits from Trump.
00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:58.720
I think the reason is that they are scared.
00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:02.399
They're scared of being sued by the Trump administration.
00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:11.519
And maybe that is true, especially in light of how litigious the Trump administration is and the attacks against networks.
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:15.679
Look what happened to Jimmy Kimmel, look what happened to ABC and to CBS.
00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:17.679
But is there a simpler explanation?
00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:21.440
Wolf's own behavior contaminated his reporting.
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.919
And maybe the news outlets were seeing that.
00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:33.919
Because you cannot act like a strategist for this is not how credibility works, and it is not how journalism works, which is why the story matters now.
00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:37.360
Wolf is insisting the real story here is Donald Trump.
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.759
And there's no argument there that Donald Trump is the central part of the story.
00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:46.559
But for people like us, if you're listening, I'm gonna include you in my little world here.
00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:48.559
Politically, we know that he's right.
00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:54.159
People do want to know what Trump knew and what Trump did and what those emails reveal.
00:14:54.480 --> 00:15:01.360
I'm not sure that they realize that the subject here is not so much Jeffrey Epstein, but Donald Trump.
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:07.519
We also like when the curtain is pulled back and it reveals something else.
00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:14.960
We know that Wolf's narrative here is saying it's vital that we understand who Trump is.
00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:16.960
Quote, who this man is.
00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:24.159
Because he is the model of what a leader should be, of what success looks like.
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:25.519
And there's the irony.
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:36.399
To understand Trump, the public now has to understand Wolf, his methods, his choices, his boundaries, and the way he used messaging to defend himself when the emails became public.
00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:42.639
Because this truth is not just about Trump or Epstein, it's about the ugly truth of access.
00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:47.840
What money will bring you, what power will bring you.
00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:54.799
All the people who affiliated themselves with Epstein, all that is slowly coming out.
00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:58.639
But also, this is access journalism.
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:13.279
When you stay close enough to the powerful long enough, you eventually start sounding like Michael Wolf will keep insisting that everything he said to Epstein was just a part of journalism and that ingratiation is a tool, not a betrayal.
00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:16.080
And sure, reporters build trust.
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:19.039
They earn access, they play the long game.
00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:21.840
I've worked in media my whole life on both sides.
00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:24.799
There was a time that I worked in journalism as well.
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:26.399
I know a lot of reporters.
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.559
My guy, he is a reporter.
00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:36.879
He is always talking about the people who give him access, who give him stories, who leak things to him.
00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:47.360
I mean, that is a very important part about journalism, especially when you are that type of watchdog journalist or an accountability journalist, which is certainly what Michael Wolf is.
00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:56.720
But Michael Wolf is so close to the flame, which is why he is trying to reframe.
00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:01.279
Because there's a difference between getting close to a source and becoming a character in their strategy.
00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:05.119
And the emails show Wolf didn't just listen, he participated.
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:10.079
And he wasn't just gathering information, he was helping a predator manage optics.
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.119
He wasn't just observing power, he was advising it.
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:17.839
That's the part that makes people recoil, myself included.
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:24.480
This past weekend, I spent a lot of time listening to podcasts about Jeffrey Epstein, going all the way back.
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:43.039
And not only was this man a predator to young women, which will make your stomach turn, especially if you read the wolf emails next to what Jeffrey Epstein did to women, but he also was a predator to people who invested in him.
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:45.279
He was also like a Bernie Madoff.
00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:47.440
That's getting lost in a lot of this.
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:53.519
He was involved in a Ponzi scheme and lost a lot of money for retirees.
00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:56.480
And he got off free on that one as well.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:00.000
Jeffrey Epstein was dirty, dirty, dirty.
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.160
And he always got through because people helped him.
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:05.759
And that's the real concern.
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:16.000
And for journalism, it comes down to public trust, the coziness, the power games, the moral corners of journalism quietly cut out.
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:21.440
And that's an ugly truth in this entire story.
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:23.200
It's the journalism piece.
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:24.880
It's so disappointing.
00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:35.200
I spent time on my live last week talking about Megan Kelly, who was trying to explain the justification that Jeffrey Epstein only liked older girls and therefore it wasn't pedophilia.
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.680
It was so disgusting to listen to her.
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:40.319
But I don't even consider her a journalist anymore.
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:44.079
She is purely a content creator out for money.
00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:47.759
But Michael Wolfe is still acting as a journalist.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:53.759
And when a journalist decides that the end justifies the mean, once you start thinking that way, the audience stops trusting you.
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:58.240
That's where I think Megan Kelly's in that territory, Tucker Carlson's in that territory.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:04.240
It's former journalists who just become strictly content creators around a political ideology.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:06.480
You want the conservative audience.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.799
So you're going to say and do whatever it takes to get those clicks and to get those views.
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.799
But when you're a journalist and you're trying to remain neutral, it gets a little grave for you.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:22.160
Because once the audience stops trusting you, you don't just lose credibility, you lose the ability to hold power to account at all.
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:24.720
And that's what we've been watching play out here.
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:35.440
Not a scandal about one man, but a case study and what happens when the people tasked with telling the truth start operating like the people they're covering.
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:37.920
That's all for this week on the podcast.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.200
Thanks for listening.
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:40.000
Bye for now.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:05.599
00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:17.199
00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:23.679
00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:28.480
00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:31.839
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:38.479
00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:44.880
00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:50.079
00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:56.079
00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:59.840
00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:02.079
00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:05.840
00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:14.079
00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:24.400
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:32.879
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:41.760
00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:46.239
00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:56.239
00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:03.680
00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:08.960
00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:14.319
00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:24.240
00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:28.000
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:32.719
00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:47.120
00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:51.840
00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:56.159
00:02:56.159 --> 00:03:12.960
00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.280
00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:33.599
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:40.159
00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:51.439
00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:54.879
00:03:54.879 --> 00:04:00.400
00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:05.919
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:10.800
00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:14.719
00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:22.319
00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:25.759
00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:30.800
00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:35.839
00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:42.240
00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:45.120
00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:46.639
00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:51.519
00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:59.120
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:04.240
00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:06.000
00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.480
00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:12.319
00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:21.120
00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:26.800
00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:29.680
00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:35.680
00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:40.079
00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:46.480
00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:53.120
00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:57.839
00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:00.319
00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:05.439
00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:17.600
00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:22.160
00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:30.160
00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:39.199
00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:41.360
00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:42.560
00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.800
00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:51.519
00:06:51.519 --> 00:07:10.879
00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:12.879
00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:14.079
00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:14.480
00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:15.120
00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:16.560
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:17.600
00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:20.879
00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:25.680
00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:29.360
00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:37.759
00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:51.920
00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:53.920
00:07:54.079 --> 00:08:01.439
00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:08.879
00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:16.800
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:20.720
00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:32.080
00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:37.440
00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:55.039
00:08:55.039 --> 00:09:02.639
00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:10.399
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:13.200
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.799
00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:19.039
00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:22.639
00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:24.480
00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.360
00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:32.960
00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:36.320
00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:39.120
00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:45.600
00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:49.279
00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:51.360
00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:57.759
00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:02.799
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:04.159
00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:06.799
00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:09.360
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:12.399
00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:14.799
00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:21.279
00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:32.399
00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:36.960
00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:43.840
00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:49.039
00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:54.320
00:10:54.320 --> 00:11:00.799
00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:02.559
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:08.879
00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:12.799
00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:16.720
00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:22.559
00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:35.759
00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:43.120
00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:49.519
00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:53.679
00:11:53.679 --> 00:12:02.159
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:10.960
00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:16.960
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.639
00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:25.039
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:29.759
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:36.879
00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:48.000
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.080
00:12:52.080 --> 00:13:00.639
00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.200
00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:15.360
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:18.559
00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:26.799
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:29.120
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:31.519
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:36.639
00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:48.799
00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:49.679
00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:52.559
00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:56.159
00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:58.720
00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:02.399
00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:11.519
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:15.679
00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:17.679
00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:21.440
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.919
00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:33.919
00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:37.360
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.759
00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:46.559
00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:48.559
00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:54.159
00:14:54.480 --> 00:15:01.360
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:07.519
00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:14.960
00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:16.960
00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:24.159
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:25.519
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:36.399
00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:42.639
00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:47.840
00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:54.799
00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:58.639
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:13.279
00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:16.080
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:19.039
00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:21.840
00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:24.799
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:26.399
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.559
00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:36.879
00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:47.360
00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:56.720
00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:01.279
00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:05.119
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:10.079
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.119
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:17.839
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:24.480
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:43.039
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:45.279
00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:47.440
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:53.519
00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:56.480
00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:00.000
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.160
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:05.759
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:16.000
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:21.440
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:23.200
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:24.880
00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:35.200
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.680
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:40.319
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:44.079
00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:47.759
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:53.759
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:58.240
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:04.240
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:06.480
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.799
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.799
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:22.160
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:24.720
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:35.440
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:37.920
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.200
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:40.000
