Nov. 12, 2025

PR in the Age of GEO: How to Make Sure AI Gets Your Story Right

You saw “GEO” in the title and almost tuned out, didn’t you? Hold that thought. If you work in communications, PR, media, or journalism, this episode might just change how you think about your job.

GEO, or Generative Engine Optimization, is not another passing buzzword. It is the next major shift in how information is found, shared, and trusted. It shapes how AI tools like ChatGPT, Perplexity, and Gemini decide which stories and brands get surfaced.

In this episode, Muck Rack’s CEO and Co-Founder, Greg Gallant, joins me to explain how GEO is reshaping public relations. He walks through how Muck Rack evolved from the early social media boom to the frontlines of AI-driven communications. We dig into how data and generative tools can help communicators strengthen media relationships, measure real impact, and stay relevant in an industry that is changing fast.

We talk about:

How PR missed the SEO wave and what GEO means for catching up
Why journalists and AI platforms are now gatekeepers of reputation
What Muck Rack’s new Generative Pulse feature reveals about how AI “reads” the news

If you work in PR, communications, or reputation management, this is not a someday conversation. It is happening right now.

Want More Behind the Breakdown?
Follow The PR Breakdown with Molly McPherson on Substack for early access to podcast episodes, exclusive member chats, weekly lives, and monthly workshops that go deeper than the mic. It's the insider’s hub for communicators who want strategy with spine—and a little side-eye where it counts.

Follow Molly on Substack
Subscribe to Molly's Weekly Newsletter
Subscribe to Molly's Live Events Calendar.

Need a Keynote Speaker? Drawing from real-world PR battles, Molly delivers the same engaging stories and hard-won crisis insights from the podcast to your live audience. Click here to book Molly for your next meeting.

This podcast is supported by Muck Rack, the PR management platform I use to monitor media coverage, track journalist activity, and inform high-stakes strategy with real-time data. Click here to try Muck Rack for yourself.

Follow & Connect with Molly:

00:00 - GEO Matters For PR Right Now

01:03 - Meet Greg Gallant And MuckRack

03:21 - From Early Social To Media Disruption

06:12 - Birth Of MuckRack And PR Shift

10:52 - Two Tidal Waves: Social And AI

13:48 - GEO vs SEO And Missed Credit

18:05 - How AI Training Changes PR Strategy

21:09 - Real-Time GEO Dynamics And Risk

24:32 - Reverse Engineering Influence For AI

27:25 - Generative Pulse: What It Tracks

30:03 - Adoption, Measurement, And Budgets

32:19 - Platform Differences And Integration

34:13 - Making The Case To Leadership

WEBVTT

00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:10.560
I know you saw GEO in the title, and you thought, oh, boring.

00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:14.960
But before you switch off this episode, I promise you it's not.

00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:26.480
If you work in communication, public relation, media, journalism, GEO or generative engine optimization, there's other words for it out there right now, but I'm going with GEO.

00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:36.079
It's the next big shift in how information gets found, how it gets shared, how it gets in the hands of journalists, how story ideas get with journalists.

00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:46.799
And if you work in public relations, if you need to put your information out there or if you're fighting misinformation, GEO is the next area of focus for you.

00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:54.320
When you understand why it matters in your job, how it protects your brand, but also makes your job easier.

00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:02.719
If you want to be the superstar in your office on your team when it comes to PR and GEO, I want you to listen to this episode.

00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:05.040
Today I'm speaking with Greg Gallant.

00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:07.840
He is the CEO and co-founder of MuckRack.

00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:23.599
You'll hear his story how MuckRack got started, but also how Greg is using GEO technology, data-driven technology to make that relationship with the press and PR people that much better.

00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:29.680
So if you work in PR, comms, reputation, this isn't a someday conversation.

00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:32.640
This is a conversation for right now.

00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:33.760
Take a listen.

00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:36.879
Welcome to the podcast.

00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:40.400
I'm excited to talk to you about all things muckrack.

00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:40.719
Welcome.

00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:41.359
Great.

00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:42.959
Thanks so much for having me on, Molly.

00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:48.400
Yeah, so the last time I saw you was back in March, I believe, in Austin at South By.

00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:55.120
I was lucky enough, fortunate enough to be invited by you and the team at MuckRack to speak on a panel.

00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:57.599
We talked about crisis response.

00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:05.359
And that's my wheelhouse, but your wheelhouse, Greg, is all about technology and public relations and communication.

00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:14.080
So for those who may not know MuckRack, can you describe the problem that the platform helps communicators and PR folks?

00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:15.039
Sure thing.

00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:25.520
So MuckRack, it's a corporate comms platform used by in-house corporate comm teams at anyone from Fortune 500 companies to startups and PR agencies.

00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:27.120
And it solves several problems.

00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:38.319
One is knowing who's the right journalist or podcaster or influencer to pitch on a new story idea, trying to know whenever you're mentioning the news on the web, on TV, in print, even.

00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:45.599
And finally to measure the impact of all this PR and to know, like, hey, we got thousands of articles this year.

00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:46.719
What does it all mean?

00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:48.719
How are we stacking off to our competitors?

00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:50.800
And now, even how is it influencing AI?

00:02:51.039 --> 00:03:04.639
Yeah, now, of course, I've been a partner with MuckRack for some time now, for most of the year, and I've really enjoyed using it, not only in the crisis response element, but also exploring it for how people can use it proactively.

00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:10.800
But I know that you've watched PR evolve from media list to real-time analytics.

00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:20.719
So, what do you think has changed the most in public relations communication outreach when it comes to your platform with MuckRack?

00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:25.039
Yeah, I'd say there were two big tidal waves that we've rode.

00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:28.800
When we started, it was right as social media was getting going.

00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:35.120
That's actually part of what inspired the whole idea for MuckRack back when we launched it in 2009.

00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:43.759
And back then, it was like there were like a couple thousand publications, and we were all about, okay, you know what all the publications are.

00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:49.120
And where our magic was we'd find the right person at that publication to pitch.

00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:58.479
And then what's changed now is that there's so many more publications, largely due to social media and the effect of the internet.

00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:05.280
So now there's we have hundreds of thousands of publications, podcasts, blogs to find.

00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:11.199
And a lot of times it might be hey, the perfect place to be interviewed is a publication you've never heard of before.

00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:18.319
So that's title wave number one and then title wave number two that we're evolving with and seeing ahead of now is AI.

00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:23.199
And it's just been fascinating to watch those two big tidal waves affect the media and PR industry.

00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:28.639
Yeah, so here we are in 2025, all about AI, but bring us back to 2009.

00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:34.480
What made you want to bring this platform to the public?

00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:41.279
So I got into this whole world early on because right when I graduated college, I started a podcast.

00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:42.560
Where'd you go to college?

00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:44.240
Emory, down in Atlanta.

00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:47.120
Okay, and coming out of Emory, you wanted to start a podcast.

00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:47.920
Yeah, that's right.

00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:50.240
I had this idea for podcasts.

00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:52.240
It wasn't even called podcasting back then.

00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:54.800
It was just called RSS Speeds with Enclosure.

00:04:55.120 --> 00:05:05.759
But I was lucky enough I got a job working part-time at CNN.com when I was at Emory and I was commuting to CNN's headquarters down in downtown Atlanta.

00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:09.360
And I kept getting stuck in traffic and I didn't like Atlanta radio.

00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:10.959
So I was pitching CNN.

00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:17.439
I'm like, hey, why don't we just take these newscasts that we have and just make them audio and let people download them onto their iPod?

00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:19.600
That the name Podcast came from iPod.

00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:22.160
That was the idea that you I did not know that.

00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:25.920
Now, oh my gosh, your origin story is a fascinating one.

00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:29.680
It it somewhat resembles mine, is when you discovered a problem.

00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:33.040
Because when I was at FEMA, we had a massive reputation problem.

00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:34.720
And I thought, well, how can we change this?

00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:36.399
And this is when social media was starting.

00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:37.680
So right around the same time.

00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:38.800
So that's fascinating.

00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:45.600
So you were at CNN, and you're the one guy who found a way to bring the news to people that wasn't necessarily over the airwaves.

00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:46.800
Yeah, that was the problem, though.

00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.199
I could never convince them to do podcasting.

00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:52.079
I tried, but I was obsessed with this idea.

00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:58.160
So when I graduated college, I decided, okay, let me just try starting a podcast and seeing what happens.

00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:05.360
And I had this idea to interview founders on how they got started on a podcast, which today is a super common format.

00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:07.360
There's probably a thousand podcasts like that.

00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:11.759
But in 2005, no one had ever done a podcast like that before.

00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:19.519
So I started this one and I'd interviewed Reed Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn, back when LinkedIn had under 50 employees.

00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:24.720
I went to their office, set up my mics, and interviewed Reed, the founder of Yelp.

00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:29.360
I got John Bogle, the founder of Vanguard Fund, an inventor of the index fund.

00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:31.199
Just some amazing guests.

00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:38.399
One of the people on the podcast was this guy, Ev Williams, who is also doing a podcasting company called Odeo.

00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:39.839
Odeo never worked.

00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:44.079
So I watched him pivot to a little side project idea called Twitter.

00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:48.000
And then of course Twitter took off and Ev did very well.

00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:50.879
That inspired me to sign up for Twitter really early.

00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:56.959
So I'm just at Gregory on Twitter and now also Instagram, just because I was the first one to sign up.

00:06:57.040 --> 00:06:58.079
I didn't even ask for a favor.

00:06:58.160 --> 00:06:58.959
No one had registered.

00:06:59.279 --> 00:06:59.680
Is that true?

00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:03.759
You're at Gregory on Twitter now, X and Instagram.

00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:04.720
That's right.

00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:06.480
That's incredible.

00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:08.639
So very much an early adopter.

00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:11.839
So I was watching that whole early social media world, as are you.

00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:19.680
And the first idea was actually I realized there's no way to know who's doing a good job on social media by topic.

00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:26.720
So had this idea that we could crowdsource who's best by topic by letting people vote with a tweet or a social share.

00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:29.199
We called it, we figured how do we get people to want to vote?

00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:30.399
We'll call it an award.

00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:33.279
And tweets are short, so we call it the Shorty Awards.

00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:38.639
Launched that in 08, and that was the very first award show for best of social media.

00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:40.079
That's still going strong.

00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:43.439
But when we launched it, it was like we built the site in two weeks.

00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:52.240
Within 24 hours, it was a top-trending term on Twitter because no one ever built like a viral system on social media before.

00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.079
So that really propelled it.

00:07:54.160 --> 00:08:00.000
And then what finally brings it back to Muckraq is that I'd launched other business ideas too.

00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.279
I always try, and with the podcasting, I was always trying to get press for them.

00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:06.079
I knew how hard it is when you come with something brand new.

00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:08.160
It's really hard to get the press to care about it.

00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:19.199
Whereas with the Shorty Awards, within those 24 hours of launching it, we had the New York Times, BBC, the Wall Street Journal, TechCrunch all reach out to us and end up covering it.

00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:22.639
It was the first event the Wall Street Journal ever live tweeted.

00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:24.639
Our office was in Brooklyn at the time.

00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:26.560
And that was before Brooklyn was cool.

00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:30.240
And the Wall Street Journal writer was like, Oh, I want to come to Brooklyn to meet you for lunch.

00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:32.159
I'm like, I'll come to Manhattan, are you sure?

00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:33.360
Oh no, I'll come to Brooklyn.

00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:36.240
I'm like, can't believe the Wall Street Journal is coming to Brooklyn for this.

00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:40.320
So I realized like journalists are using social to figure out what to write about.

00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:44.480
So we launched Muckrack in 09, really at first for journalists.

00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:46.559
We didn't have any part of it for PR people.

00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:52.639
It was the first site we could see all the journalists who were on social media and that let journalists set up their own portfolios.

00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:55.679
We had over 10,000 journalists request to get on the site.

00:08:55.759 --> 00:09:00.720
And then I kept bumping into PR people being in New York, and they were all like, oh, you do muck rack.

00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:02.399
I'm using it to figure out who to pitch.

00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:05.360
So that's where we're like, oh, we could probably build a business out of this.

00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:06.480
And that's what we did.

00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:10.080
Wow, you were riding the wave right at the right time.

00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:17.440
Now, of course, I'm listening to your story, and I also was an early adopter to Twitter, but I was not quite the visionary as you.

00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:20.399
Why I wasn't at Molly, I wasn't even thinking that.

00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:22.159
I was incredibly early on it.

00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:24.320
But I wasn't you know, it's it's funny.

00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:33.679
A lot of the earliest people, they wanted to get their AOL screen name on Twitter, and they could have had their first name, but they were just like, Oh, I gotta be consistent with my AOL.

00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:35.840
Oh my god, that is so funny.

00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:45.840
But you were a visionary also because you understood the idea of virality that things could go viral.

00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:51.840
And I remember using Twitter back in 2007, around that time, and that was not in the vernacular.

00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:54.480
People weren't really talking about viral.

00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:59.120
So you were viral before it was even a known entity, which I think is incredible.

00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:01.279
And that's where these great ideas come from.

00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:12.480
Yeah, I mean, to me, what was so exciting about those early days of Twitter is like prior to Twitter, it's so easy to forget now about every social platform, it's only about connecting with your friends.

00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:13.600
Facebook, right?

00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:20.320
I was on really early, but back then it was like you had to have your college email address and it could only be with your friends.

00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:23.200
And then there was the MySpace and Friends there before that.

00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:23.440
Right.

00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:25.679
And Twitter, they actually kind of started that way.

00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:29.440
The original vision was like, oh, let's eat what you had for lunch, and that really was it.

00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:40.960
But it was open and then it evolved over those first couple years where people realized, like, hey, this is a media that I can write on here and anyone could see it.

00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:42.240
And back then it was still new.

00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:47.759
That first year we had the Shorty Awards, like it was newsworthy whenever a celebrity got on social.

00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:52.639
And I remember we had MC Hammer there the first year, like Shaquille and Neil came by video.

00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:59.279
And just the fact that these people who'd had real fame would bother with social media was considered extraordinary.

00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:07.279
Whereas now it seems so quaint because you can't imagine a famous person not being on social media, and it's the social media stars are bigger than the traditional celebrities.

00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:08.240
Oh, absolutely.

00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:10.799
And celebrities still struggle with it, too, in my opinion.

00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:16.960
Now, as someone who uses MuckRack, I've been a partner with Muckrak now throughout the year, and I've really enjoyed it.

00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:21.840
And I almost find there are just many different options for people to use it.

00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:25.440
And in so many different parts of comms are in there.

00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:30.159
You could be a PR person, you could be a journalist, you could be someone like me who's looking more for the issues.

00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:32.559
What I love the most is looking at the sentiment.

00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:35.039
That's something that I'm always uh looking for.

00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:36.399
What do you find?

00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:40.320
I could tell you're a trend guy, you're a research guy, you're an analytic guy.

00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:44.559
How are people using a platform like yours now?

00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:46.399
What are they seeking most?

00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:57.200
Yeah, so I think in addition to what they've always used it for, seeking the right journalists, the contact, and podcasters, seeking the right coverage, making sense of what's in their industry.

00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:06.879
To me, the new thing that we're really focused on and that has me excited is this whole idea of generative engine optimization, GEO.

00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:09.759
Where there's all other acronyms for it, and everyone's fighting.

00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:11.840
It could be AIO, AEO.

00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:13.919
What are you settling on, Greg?

00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:15.200
What are you settling on?

00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.399
I thought we'd won the battle with GEO.

00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:19.600
I I like that one.

00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:23.200
I think it sounds good, but then there are a lot of people still pushing the others.

00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:26.799
So this will be the big campaign that we need to do.

00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:28.320
Put a little PR behind it.

00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:30.000
Yeah, I'm a GEO person.

00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:35.840
I'm all in on GEO, and it's so much easier to, and it ties in nicely with SEO.

00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:38.320
Give me your thoughts on the difference now.

00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:40.480
Here we are, like late 2025.

00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:43.279
Where is GEO compared to SEO?

00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:44.879
Search engine optimization.

00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:46.559
Yeah, there's two things I'd say.

00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:56.879
One is it's much more powerful than SEO because I think we all use AI, and I think we're all finding now we're asking AI things that we would never have bothered to Google for.

00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:03.120
Just the other day, I had my alarm in my home started chirping because the backup battery ran out of power.

00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:08.240
And I took a photo of it and uploaded it to AI and it pointed out, like, hey, that's a zinc battery.

00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:13.600
It's not going to last as long as if you buy an alkaline or lithium battery, without me even asking it.

00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:17.360
And I'm like, I never even knew these types of batteries were a thing.

00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:19.279
So it's affecting us a lot more.

00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:27.440
But the big thing I'd say, especially if you're listeners in the PR and comms world here, is I think PR missed the boat on SEO.

00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:34.320
Because the PR profession has a huge impact on SEO, because SEO was always about backlinks.

00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:43.360
If you have people linking to you from credible websites, that's what drove SEO, at least for the first like 10 or 15 years of SEO.

00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:47.200
And that's how Google would always decide what to put high up in search results.

00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:49.120
How did PR miss it though?

00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:50.320
Why do you think they missed it?

00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:55.200
So I think PR missed it because they were doing the best SEO of anyone.

00:13:55.279 --> 00:14:00.320
Because you get a credible website like a news outlet to link to you while they cover you.

00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:02.960
You're adding all this value to SEO.

00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.440
But I think PR people, they didn't take the credit.

00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:20.320
So I think all the PR people or most of the PR people out there, they were doing the SEO work or a lot of the SEO work and getting these links to the coverage they got, but they'd never go to their boss if they were in-house or to their client and say, hey, guess what?

00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:21.519
I did all this SEO.

00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:30.879
And because they didn't take credit for it and add it to their measurement and their metrics, this whole other industry, the SEO industry developed, got to ride that wave.

00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:37.360
And it because that most PR departments, PR agencies didn't get a slice of the SEO budget.

00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:38.240
That's interesting.

00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:38.720
The budget.

00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:40.879
So it's so it's like you're basically out.

00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:43.200
I think PR, they were doing a bunch of unpaid work.

00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.000
They were doing the SEO work and not getting paid for it.

00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:46.720
Absolutely.

00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:47.120
Okay.

00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:53.200
So the GEO, it sounds like you're saying it's a great way to catch up for the industry where they can start getting credit.

00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:53.840
Exactly.

00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.240
It's like a way to catch up with GEO.

00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:07.279
PR is even more impactful for GEO than with SEO, because all these AI platforms, OpenAI, Gemini, Claude, et cetera, they're training on news content.

00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.480
And you can read the training on it and they're citing it.

00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:14.879
If you just read the headlines, OpenAI did a$200 million deal with News Corp.

00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:23.679
to get their content with Axios, it's billions of dollars are being spent because that's how important it is to AI to have this news content.

00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:41.600
And so what we saw in our what is AI reading study is that a third of the content cited by AI are what would be considered traditional journalistic news outlets, and then roughly another third are blogs and other kind of third-party content that is what people are saying about you.

00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:47.759
So if I go on AI and I say, hey, what's the best battery to buy?

00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:49.360
This is what I was doing last weekend.

00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:51.840
Should I get the Amazon basics for the Energizer?

00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:57.679
And it was like, no, also consider Duracell, but don't buy Amazon basics by Duracell or Energizer.

00:15:58.159 --> 00:15:59.120
I'd say ask AI.

00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:00.080
Yeah, exactly.

00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.559
And you take any product category, right?

00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:05.519
I'm going to Dubai in a couple of weeks.

00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:06.799
What hotel should I stay at?

00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:08.559
It's going to spit out five hotels.

00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:18.399
And so if you're any kind of business person, a comps person, but even if you're a CEO or a CMO, the obvious question is how do I get AI to mention my company?

00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.000
And how do I get it to recommend my company and say good things about me?

00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:30.240
So that's, I think, going to be the biggest challenge of any business in how they think about communicating, marketing, generally going to market.

00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:39.360
And PR is the answer because what's written about you in the news on the web is going to determine what AI recommends.

00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:44.080
So I think it gives PR this whole new calling and whole new relevance.

00:16:44.240 --> 00:17:04.640
And the connections were obvious than with SEO, because with SEO, to understand page rank and the linking thing is a little academic, whereas here is very visceral because you're asking AI something and you're seeing, oh, it's citing the New York Times, it's citing Wall Street Journals, citing Axios, it's citing our blog, and you can like see that connection very clearly.

00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:12.640
So now, because I'm in a lane of very reactive PR, I'm always looking at a metric of reputation.

00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:14.559
That's the scale that I'm working with.

00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:26.720
But for a lot of people in proactive PR, working in corporate PR, working for other brands or companies, even small business, politics, whatever it is, their job is to get pressed and proactive and get it anywhere.

00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:41.119
So for following your map, if a PR person has a general understanding of SEO and you're just trying to land somewhere online, you will be a part of that scrape that will be in the AI search.

00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.160
And then your information is going to come up.

00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:51.680
So from a day-to-day perspective, what is a PR person doing now that's different than five years ago?

00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:53.119
Yeah, I think that's a great point.

00:17:53.279 --> 00:18:01.440
And I think one of the big differences is like with SEO, it was very static, but you maybe change positions in Google every month if that.

00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:04.400
So once you're up there, you're good and it takes a while to change it.

00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.359
With GEO, it's indexing on very recent news.

00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.160
It could be indexing on an article that came out five minutes ago.

00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:19.839
So I think it's even relevant for corporate comms because your client might say, if I'm going into a meeting, someone's gonna ask ChatGPT, who the hell is Greg Gallant?

00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.759
And I hopefully it'll say good things about me.

00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:24.480
Luckily, I haven't done a big scandal, at least not yet.

00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:29.119
But if I did, I'd be like, I want to make sure that it's not defining me by the scandal.

00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:31.359
What source is it gonna use for me?

00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:34.079
And that's where you have to now like reverse engineer it.

00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:40.480
So for example, I could say, okay, let's get this statement out to the New York Times and set the record straight that way.

00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:41.519
But guess what?

00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.559
Like the New York Times is suing Open AI.

00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:48.799
So ChatGPT can't index on New York Times stories.

00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:55.279
So we can get the best placement in the world in the New York Times, and it won't matter for Open AI.

00:18:55.440 --> 00:19:03.759
So then we might have to say, okay, let's go for a publication that we would normally think is less important than the New York Times, but will actually influence AI.

00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:11.519
And then vice versa, maybe we do still want to be in the New York Times because they did a deal with Amazon, and soon enough it's gonna influence Amazon's AI.

00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:12.480
Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:20.720
I think you and I would agree that it's still a little messy because there are media outlets out there who participate in AI.

00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:28.480
And then we have lawsuits that are happening all the time where the media outlets are suing because they don't want all their information on there.

00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:51.039
And then there's also people and their books and their content being so we're still in a messy time, but in that mess, there still is an opportunity right now that if you are quoted somewhere, if you're inserted, if you can get into that story, you're going to get into the AI platforms and into the hands of someone looking for new batteries.

00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:51.920
Well said.

00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.880
I think it's the Wild West in GEO.

00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:56.880
We don't even know what it's called.

00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.000
But it's the Wild West.

00:19:58.240 --> 00:19:59.200
But I think that's exciting.

00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:08.400
And it reminds me of the early social media days, where like in the early days, you you'd really have to convince a company like why they should be on social.

00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:13.440
And most companies weren't, and most of them were like, hey, aren't we going to get in trouble here?

00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.079
And maybe somebody will flame us or whatever.

00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:19.279
So it took a while for companies to get on social media.

00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.920
But because of that, people were insurgents were able to get ahead that you saw.

00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:31.839
A lot of brands were like, they weren't even that important, but they just got on social before other people and they were able to really build up their brand in a much bigger way.

00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:37.359
And a lot of people even built entire companies around like figuring social out before other people.

00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:45.200
And I think that opportunity exists now where, hey, if you're already the number one, you should definitely be getting on GEO to protect that position.

00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:52.640
But if you're number 15, maybe you could become number three because you're gonna figure this out before everybody else does.

00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:57.599
So I think it's like there's no sure fire playbook, but that's why there's opportunity.

00:20:57.920 --> 00:20:58.880
Oh, absolutely.

00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:05.119
You and I are very similar in terms of the career trajectory or even just our interest, because I'm with you.

00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:21.200
When it I was a very early adopter to social media, but I was also a very early adopter and also ambassador to telling my clients and in my talks and in my workshops, we want to use social media, but there is always this reluctance because there's a fear.

00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:29.680
AI is going through the same reputation issue that social media is going through as well in terms of that fear, but there is something to it.

00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.920
There is a lot of misinformation on the AI platforms right now.

00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:39.279
So I know a lot of people are using Chat GPT perplexity to get the truth.

00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:47.519
But in your opinion, what are the implications for organizations that aren't thinking about how AI represents their story, good or bad?

00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:53.279
Yeah, I think the big implication is people are going to ask AI about you whether you want to like it or not.

00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.319
AI is gonna give an answer whether you like it or not.

00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:57.119
Well said.

00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.119
So there's no opt-out button.

00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:04.480
You can't go to ChatGPT and be like, actually, just block my whole product category until we figure out our strategy.

00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:09.039
It's out there telling you what kind of battery to buy and what kind of hotel to stay at.

00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:11.039
So you're in the game already.

00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:12.559
And like PR, right?

00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.680
That you could say, hey, look, I don't want the media to cover me.

00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:19.599
If the media doesn't care, if they think you're newsworthy, they're gonna cover you.

00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:24.000
And it's kind of the same for AI, where AI is gonna cover you, so you have to have a strategy.

00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:34.319
But I think with AI, it's more complex because at least with the kind of traditional PR, it's okay, I can see what the New York Times said about me.

00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:45.519
Maybe I don't like it, maybe it has an error, maybe we debate if we try to get them to issue a correction, but I'm gonna get the newspaper, I cut it out with my scissors, or put look at it on my screen and I know what it says.

00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.000
Hi, every answer is a little bit different.

00:22:48.240 --> 00:23:06.400
So if I don't start tracking it, like I might ask AI, if I go to ChatGPT right now, I say, tell me about Greg Gall, it knows who I am, so it's gonna be a sycophant and say, Oh, Greg Gallon's great, listen back, because it it has a memory, so it knows everything about, or if I ask about my company, it's like an intern who sucks up.

00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.599
It's gonna try to say the best things about it.

00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:30.319
Whereas if you did it, Molly, from your account, it might say something totally different because it's just trying to equip you with the most accurate information, or maybe it knows some based on your persona, it's gonna describe us one way, but for someone sitting next to you, they have a different persona, they're in a different part of the industry, and it'll describe us another way.

00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:35.920
So if you don't start measuring in a broad way, you just have no idea what AI is saying about you.

00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:42.799
That's a dangerous thing given now, for better or worse, that so many people are relying on these AI answers to make decisions.

00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:43.279
Yes.

00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:51.039
And not only, of course, we always can't control how the press covers us or our clients, but we can control our websites.

00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:57.119
We can control where the outlets that we own, and AI certainly picks that up as well.

00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:02.720
Now, Mugreq has always been about helping communicators build stronger media relationships.

00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:14.400
How does that mission evolve into an era, now that we're in the era of algorithm and AI, when it comes to my lane of shaping perception, but also just those proactive stories out there?

00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.920
Yeah, I think what's really changed is how you go about doing it.

00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:27.599
So the innovation we first brought to market was that you should think it shouldn't be journals based on what they have written about in the past and search by keyword.

00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:36.400
And now everyone does that, but in 2000, 2009, like no one had put a system like that out there and it changed the whole world of how it works.

00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:41.759
Now I think we're in the next version of it where you want to reverse engineer the whole process.

00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:54.559
So you want to say, hey, for my audience, which news outlets and journalists are gonna be the most influential uh to them and to AI when they ask AI about these topics.

00:24:54.799 --> 00:25:01.039
And then, based on that, build your media list and say, okay, these are the publications, these are journalists.

00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:02.880
I'm gonna add them to my media list.

00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:06.480
And then I'm going to build relationships with these journalists.

00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:08.880
And now it's also podcasters, substackers.

00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:11.599
We've added all the whole new media ecosystem.

00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:22.960
But basically build your list based upon that and then get strategic about okay, do you meet with them, do you pitch them, what ordering combination do you do that all in, which we built all the tooling for.

00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:37.119
But it's tying that all and then finally connecting that to results with then knowing when you do get the press hit, like being notified, hey, this press hit happened because you pitched them, and now it creates this flywheel of influence with PR and GEO.

00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:44.799
I was using MuckRack when I needed to pitch a client because they were dealing with the reactive issue.

00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.319
So we weren't trying to proactively pitch a product.

00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:53.119
We were trying to pitch a reputation and how it was good and not bad.

00:25:53.279 --> 00:26:01.519
And that feature in Muckrack was really helpful, trying to find the right journalist who talked about this issue in the past and it brought it up right away.

00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:04.720
So I found a way for me to use it as well.

00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:09.680
Now, tell me then about the GEO feature that you've added into MuckRack.

00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:10.240
Sure.

00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:14.640
So we launched this whole new product within Muckrack called Generative Pulse.

00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:24.240
And what it does is it lets you set up a bunch of prompts, AI prompts, questions that your customers would likely ask, just to use my my selling example.

00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:25.279
What's the best battery?

00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:26.079
What's the best nine?

00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:34.079
You come with dozens of them, what's the best nine volt battery, what's the longest lasting battery, what's the most reliable battery, et cetera, et cetera.

00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:44.960
So you queue up all these prompts, and then what it does is it goes out to every AI platform and asks it every day those questions, and then records the answer and records more importantly the citations.

00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:57.279
So then you can say, hey, if you're an energizer, you want to know I mentioned 60, share kind of share a voice, like I mentioned 60% of the time, Duracell's got 50, so we're ahead, but let's try to get to 70.

00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:58.640
And also what's the sentiment?

00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:00.000
Are we getting positive mentions?

00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:02.160
Are we getting it could be we're getting a negative mention?

00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:03.119
So it tells you all that.

00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:08.559
And then even more importantly, it tells you what outlets are being cited for these questions.

00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.640
So it might be is it batteryweekly.com being cited?

00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:15.200
Is it the battery podcast being cited?

00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:17.759
Or is it the New York Times and Wall Street Journal?

00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:29.359
So you can see all the outlets, and then even all the journalists who are writing the stories are getting cited by AI, all within this generative pulse product, which is fully integrated to the rest of the muck rack.

00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:37.359
So then you can look at that and start to know okay, if I want to impact this, which journals and outlets do I need to connect with?

00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:43.920
Certainly, if anyone's listening from the battery industry right now, they're going to be thrilled because now they know exactly what they need to do.

00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:52.160
So are you hearing anything from PR teams or clients who are already experimenting the generative part of your platform now with MuckRack?

00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:54.400
Yeah, we've been getting a lot of great feedback on it.

00:27:54.640 --> 00:28:00.319
It's one of our most quickly adopted new features that we've rolled out among our user base.

00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:09.359
So we're seeing a lot of PR teams that kind of gives them like this whole new relevance and lens to look at their job where they're seeing, like, hey, we're impacting this whole new way.

00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:23.680
We're seeing, I was just meeting with a PR agency customer of ours who's telling me that the earn media part of her agency has been like getting getting much more busy this year because people have realized there's this new value to earn media.

00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:33.039
And then it also is given, I think, that they often struggle to talk to the CFO and explain, hey, how does what we do affect the bottom line of this business?

00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:44.319
But now with these kind of stats, it's so we can explain exactly how we're impacting AI, and everybody knows that AI is the driving force, and everyone's redoing their budgets now, so it really shows the impact.

00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:45.519
Oh, absolutely.

00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:52.640
Do you think there's a big difference between your platform and other media platforms out there, like Meltwater, Susion?

00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:53.680
Of course.

00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:55.759
We started MuckRack.

00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.319
We're still the new kids on the block, believe it or not.

00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:04.400
One of the ones you mentioned started is Bacon's book in the 1800s, where they were sending out books to everybody.

00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:09.119
But I think that the big difference is we built MuckRack from the ground up.

00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.559
We didn't string it together through acquisitions and all that.

00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:21.200
So, because that's one interview platform, so you can connect when you're pitching the journalist, when you're monitoring, get notified.

00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:22.480
Hey, you got this article.

00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:25.440
This article is written, and we can tell you pitch the journalists.

00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:28.960
So we're, you know, we're automatically telling you that you should take credit for that.

00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:37.920
To the reportings, you can see the impact of all the pitches that you had, to now generative false reach and see how does that affect AI.

00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:47.920
It's all one continuous system, so it's all tied together, and you can, in a very user friendly way, go from one part to another and tell that story of how it all connects.

00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:58.000
And I think for any legacy player where they've had to piece all the parts together, like the data just doesn't speak as well between it all and just can't have that same impact.

00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:04.240
For people out there listening, I Of course, have a lot of communicators, PR types, corporate communicators who listen to this podcast.

00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:11.359
So let's say they're using one of those other platforms, or they haven't even explored using any platform at all.

00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:14.000
What would you say to a PR person?

00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:20.160
What is the pitch that you would give them that they need to give to their senior leadership to get on board?

00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.680
Yeah, I think the pitch now is that the media is totally changed.

00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:34.079
You have to rethink about how you influence AI, how your customers get AI answers, that getting to the media is super important and that earned media drives AI.

00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:36.960
So you have to do earned media better than ever.

00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:48.400
And just like any other part of your business, you need like an integrated uh system of record where you can both get your data, track your outcomes, measure the impact.

00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:50.799
And that's really what we do at MuckRack.

00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:57.279
We built the software platform that thousands of PR teams are already relying on to do this.

00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:07.759
So getting the right tool in place is what will really let your team be much more efficient, be much more impactful, and then be able to measure and show the results.

00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:28.160
You know, I see MuckRack, I like how you position it as the scrappy fighting platform that's always really just always evolving into the next thing around the corner, which really matches how you embrace technology, social media, digital media many years ago, a couple decades ago.

00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:29.359
And that's why I'm excited.

00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:34.799
Coming up in December next month, there's a generative pulse summit that you're sponsoring in New York City.

00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:36.880
I'm going to be on a panel about reputation.

00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:38.160
I'm excited about that.

00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.960
What was the idea behind putting this summit together?

00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:45.119
Yeah, so we saw this whole GEO field is so new.

00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:56.960
It didn't exist even a year ago, because even though AI's been around now for a couple of years, AI search has only really been around for just a little bit under a year.

00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:59.839
So it's a whole new field, super impactful.

00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:12.079
Like I said, we're getting tremendous interest in this generator pulse product, but we see that everyone knows it matters, but a lot of people are still getting up to speed on the 101 of like how does this all work?

00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:17.359
So we thought, hey, let's actually buck the trend and get people together in person.

00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:19.119
How old fashioned is that?

00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:22.319
Uh, to talk about AI and to talk about what's driving AI.

00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:38.880
So we just thought it'd be super uh impactful to bring all the smartest minds about GEO together in New York City, back where we started, and hash it out and explore this together and give people a chance to meet all the kind of leaders in the field and as we figure this out together.

00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:46.240
Yeah, I'm excited about the event and I'm excited to attend, but also to hear everything around GEO and what people are talking about and thinking about.

00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:57.279
So, my final question to you, Greg: what excites you most about the future of PR and communication and technology as it continues to evolve?

00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:06.720
Yeah, what really excites me is that media and the importance of communication is it's been around time immemoria, right?

00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:12.240
Where when the printing press was invented, there's always technology and media and PR.

00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:17.440
They're always having interplay with each other, and and the game is always changing.

00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:23.039
And it has been ever since newspapers and radio, TV, the internet, social media.

00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:28.880
And and this is why for me, after even though I started this company where 15 years ago, it still feels like a startup.

00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:34.160

PR in the Age of GEO: How to Make Sure AI Gets Your Story Right

Listen On

Recent Episodes

communications Episodes

PR Episodes

Browse episodes by category