Oct. 8, 2025

When Sports and Scandal Collide: Inside the Biggest Controversies and Comebacks

When Sports and Scandal Collide: Inside the Biggest Controversies and Comebacks
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In this episode, Molly sits down with Jim Rocco and Thom Weidlich, co-authors of Sports Crisis Communications: Cases and Controversies, to explore how the worlds of sports and crisis PR collide. From Tiger Woods’ redemption arc to Aaron Rodgers’ vaccine controversy and Brett Favre’s legal troubles, this candid conversation dissects how athletes, teams, and brands handle scandal when the spotlight turns harsh.

The trio also dives into how social media, fan loyalty, and corporate interests shape the playbook for managing reputation in modern sports. Whether it’s Tom Brady’s conflict of interest, the NFL’s uneasy dance with gambling, or the Dodgers’ Pride Night flip-flop, this episode pulls back the curtain on how power, money, and morality intersect on and off the field.

In this episode:

  • Tiger Woods’ image makeover: from scandal to super-dad
  • How Aaron Rodgers’ “immunized” comment tested State Farm’s crisis strategy
  • Brett Favre, welfare funds, and the price of silence in litigation PR
  • The NFL’s resilience (and denial) through scandal after scandal
  • When betting meets ball: why gambling is the next big PR minefield
  • The Dodgers’ Pride Night controversy and the danger of corporate flip-flopping
  • What brands can learn from Dick’s Sporting Goods’ values-based stand
  • Why vulnerability (and a good apology) can save an athlete’s reputation
  • Tom Brady’s latest “conflict of interest” and the ethics of sports media
  • Advice for rising athletes and a few words of wisdom for Bill Belichick

Key takeaway:
Reputation is built long before the crisis hits. Whether you’re a star athlete or a CEO, your credibility bank determines how hard you fall, and how fast you recover.

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Follow & Connect with Molly:

00:00 - Meet the Authors and Their Path

01:47 - Tiger Woods and Image Repair

03:12 - Aaron Rodgers, State Farm, and Vaccines

05:20 - Brett Favre, Litigation, and Silence

07:26 - Why Some Athletes Lose Sponsors

09:15 - NFL Reputation and Resilience

10:36 - Gambling’s New Minefield

13:20 - Pete Rose, Otani, and Evolving Norms

16:05 - Passion, Pedestals, and Passes

18:01 - Vulnerability, Mental Health, and Apologies

20:28 - CTE, Safety, and the Future of Football

23:22 - Corporate Crises: Values and Planning

25:55 - Dodgers’ Pride Night Flip-Flop

28:52 - Conflicts of Interest: Tom Brady’s Roles

31:48 - Crisis Rules that Still Matter

33:53 - Advice for Rising Athletes

35:33 - Belichick, Legacy, and Media Rules

36:58 - Closing and Book Recommendation

WEBVTT

00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:05.200
All right.

00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.080
Thanks, Jim and Tom, for joining me on the podcast.

00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:13.759
Love having you guys here this time of year because the fall is a great time of year for sports.

00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:15.519
So here's my first question for you.

00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:16.960
Tell me your fandom.

00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:18.559
Who do you follow in football?

00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:19.760
Just football basically.

00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:20.879
Oh, Yankees Giants.

00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:23.199
Oh, God, I should hang up the podcast.

00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:26.079
I'm guessing Patriots and Red Sox.

00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:27.359
Tom, how about you?

00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:28.800
I know you said you weren't much of a sportsman.

00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:31.600
Yeah, one of the ironies is that I'm really not a sports guy.

00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:32.880
I'm a crisis guy.

00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:37.679
But I will say I have had periods in my life when I was following the Mets and the Nets.

00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:40.240
I am from New Jersey and New York.

00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:43.439
But hey, you guys, I'm glad that we had a chance to speak here.

00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:52.159
There was something about your book coming in the mail about sports crisis communications, the cases and the controversy, and also the background of the two of you.

00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:56.960
This is truly a melding of a sports background, a journalistic background.

00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.799
So just give me your brief bio on how you two came together to put this book together.

00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:02.640
Yeah, I have a journalism background.

00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:07.840
And about 10 years ago, I went to the dark side, as they say, but mostly on the crisis side.

00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:15.280
So I do crisis communications advising companies and individuals how to deal with the media when they have a negative situation.

00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:17.439
We're essentially in the same business right there.

00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:18.959
And it is a very busy time.

00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:20.879
September, I find, is always busy.

00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:24.400
But it's interesting that, Jim, so your firm also has a sports business.

00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:30.400
Yeah, so about seven years ago, our boss, Jim Hagerty, found that his sports footprint was expanding.

00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:34.159
I worked at HBO Sports for a number of years, and uh the timing was just right.

00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:37.359
I was able to come in, help him out with that stuff, a lot of straight PR.

00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:43.120
And of course, over the past seven years or so, I've really gotten acclimated and christened into the world of crisis as well.

00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:46.719
Well, almost every sector obviously has crisis issues.

00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:50.239
Right off the bat, you mention the golf background.

00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:57.359
When we think of golf and crisis, we have one name that comes to the top, which is Tiger Woods.

00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:04.079
Just in general, how do you think he navigated from that very bad Thanksgiving weekend to now?

00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.040
Like, where does the industry view a Tiger Woods?

00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:13.120
I think he's become, as he's gotten older, a little bit more maybe likable or less harmful.

00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:15.680
He's been seen in the media as a great father lately.

00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:17.120
That's been where he's at.

00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:25.759
We see him not playing anymore, but caddying for his son and guiding his son through the process of becoming, at some point, he's gonna be a collegiate player.

00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:28.960
I think that image has helped, that fatherly image.

00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:33.520
And when we see him now, he's there with his son and his daughter and his arms around them and they love him.

00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:34.800
I think that's helped his image.

00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:42.639
History will tell where people are gonna have certain biases, but I think for the most part, he's just gonna go down as one of the greatest golfers of all time.

00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:46.960
And a guy who's right into the ship, how much of it was purposeful or inadvertently.

00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:48.000
I'm not entirely sure.

00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:57.360
Yeah, because looking back on that incident with his wife, of course, it was an infidelity scandal that came right into his sponsorship and just him being the golden boy of golf.

00:02:57.360 --> 00:02:58.719
But you're absolutely right.

00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:02.639
People wanted to still like Tiger Woods, they didn't want to cast him aside.

00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:11.680
I think it's somewhat reasonable that people understand that there are breakdowns in marriage, but you can always be a good parent, and that's definitely what we're seeing there.

00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:24.560
So let's highlight a couple of the crisis examples that you two talk about in your book, and they usually involve a superstar in the sport or like a big powerful team.

00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:30.639
You know what's interesting as we were coming up with the stories to talk about so many of these you forget about.

00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.479
And then you just see a headline or two, and then it comes racing back to you.

00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:42.879
And the first one is Aaron Rogers and State Farm, which brings us back to the days of the whole vaccination.

00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.719
So tell me a little bit about what happened in that crisis.

00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:48.800
That goes back to 2021.

00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:58.319
You're in the middle of the COVID, and Rogers, let's say, fibbed a little about his vaccination status, and that became a big scandal.

00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:01.680
Are you vaccinated and what's your stance on vaccinations?

00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:03.120
Yeah, I've been immunized.

00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:07.680
He's a big spokesman for a state farm, the big insurance company.

00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:12.319
So the question was, how are they gonna deal with this and how are they gonna react?

00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:15.039
And they basically didn't do anything.

00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:16.160
That was noteworthy.

00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:26.480
There's a big subject in the book because sponsorships, what do you do if you're a marketer and you have a sports spokesman or a spokesman and they get into trouble?

00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:28.399
That's a reflection on your brand.

00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:30.959
So that was what we were discussing there.

00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:46.000
It feels like maybe instead of going the spokesperson route of handing over it to having a star player be their spokesperson, as they went to Jake from State Farm, who certainly have different iterations right now, and is one of the more popular campaigns out there.

00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:50.560
So certainly they reign supreme coming out of this particular crisis.

00:04:50.560 --> 00:05:01.600
But the company said their take on it that you talk about is we encourage vaccinations, but respect everyone's right to make a choice based on their personal circumstances.

00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:04.079
So they really stood by their spokesperson.

00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:04.720
Yeah.

00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:08.800
Now it's such a hot issue because a lot of people are against vaccination.

00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:14.560
So if state farm took a position on one way or the other, they would upset one group or the other.

00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:17.600
And that's such a standard issue in crisis.

00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:18.079
Yeah.

00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:21.439
So that partnership came to an end two years later.

00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:25.600
Where do you see Aaron Rodgers right now as a brand?

00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:36.720
Because just in terms of a public figure, he's certainly destined for the Hall of Fame, but he's had so many interesting storylines, certainly moving the teams, you know, where he is right now.

00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:38.720
I believe he was just chosen captain.

00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:39.839
He might have been, yeah.

00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:41.680
His leadership is undeniable.

00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:45.120
Obviously, like you say, he's a future Hall of Famer, a seasoned veteran.

00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:46.639
Look, he's a quirky guy.

00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:47.920
There's just no getting around it.

00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:57.600
And that served him well in the most part, because I think it's he was one of those classic guys who wasn't drafted as early as he wanted and had a chip on his shoulder and willed himself to win.

00:05:57.600 --> 00:05:58.480
It's a good story.

00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:00.160
He was in Green Bay for most of his career.

00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.879
I think he wired his welcome with the Jets in New York.

00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:04.800
We'll see how it ends up in Pittsburgh.

00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:11.040
But he's just one of those guys that if you hit your wagon to him, especially at this point, who he is, what he's about, what he brings to the table.

00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:17.519
Again, history will judge him, but I think Larger he'll be viewed as a guy who was in his own little world and made it work for him.

00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:19.600
And uh that's who Aaron Rodgers is.

00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:25.759
Now moving on to another quarterback going back to Green Bay and a stop at the Minnesota Vikings, Brett Favre.

00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:29.199
Like he was a different type of a problematic quarterback.

00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:49.759
So, Jim, tell me a little bit about the background and what you talk about in the book about uh so a lot of people might remember he's had a few different scandals, but the one that really occurred after his playing career was he pressured public officials to divert some welfare money to build a volleyball port arena at his alma mater where his daughter was a member of the volleyball team.

00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:53.920
And of course, there was a text thread that was evidence to all this.

00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:59.600
And it of course hearkened back to the sexting scandal that he had when he was a player with the Jets.

00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:01.680
So there was precedence there.

00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:07.439
And I think Aaron Rodgers probably is one of those guys that maybe is thinks he's a little bit smarter than he actually is.

00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:10.079
I think Brad Favre was always like the football player.

00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:16.240
He was that guy who was great on the field, maybe not didn't have a whole lot else going on.

00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.680
And again, football fans maybe don't care about some of that stuff.

00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:22.000
It's not going to tarnish his image, his legacy.

00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:24.480
They'll forget about it, they'll just remember what he did on the field.

00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:30.480
But I think for the most part, he clearly has some reputational issues that are part to shake at this point in his life.

00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:36.879
We also use this as he's embroiled in this mess in Mississippi over these welfare funds.

00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:46.800
So we use it as an example to talk about litigation and litigation PR, because that's a big I mean, in a certain sense, it's separate from crisis PR, but they're really kind of melding.

00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.560
And we always say that every crisis has a legal aspect now.

00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:58.480
But then you have absolute litigation, and there's all sorts of best practices there in terms of communications and the media.

00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:01.360
He's basically not doing much in terms of that.

00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:04.000
I don't think he's not telling his story at all, really.

00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:09.839
But we did use it as a way to talk about the importance of telling your story even in litigation.

00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:13.199
Yeah, well, you mentioned that all crises have a legal implication.

00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:16.720
I say that all crises have a financial implication.

00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:22.800
And this usually all problems, the road leads back to money, certainly which happened in this case.

00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:31.360
But comparing two quarterback and even Tiger Woods for that matter, why does one survive and one doesn't?

00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:36.159
And not only that, when he had this issue, he was dropped by Cirrus XM.

00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:39.039
He also was dropped by ESPN Game Day.

00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.679
He's taken a lot of hits on this, Brett Favre.

00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:44.480
Why do you think people dropped him?

00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:46.879
Why were they so quick to drop him compared to other athletes?

00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:49.759
Sometimes I think it matters what you do afterwards.

00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:52.000
Like Brett Favre isn't really doing a whole lot else.

00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:54.480
We're not seeing him outside doing anything.

00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:58.480
But again, a Tiger Woods is present even if he's not playing, but with his family.

00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:00.320
Even an Aaron Rogers is still playing.

00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:03.840
So his situation is a little bit different than somebody who's been retired a number of years.

00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:06.159
I think this is all we're hearing about Brett Favre.

00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.919
If he's not changing the narrative, there's nothing else that he's doing right now.

00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:12.000
So I think that has something to do with it.

00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:15.200
And it's easier to drop someone like that because that's the case.

00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:23.279
Okay, so now moving on to the culture aspect of it, sports, right now where we are in this season, it's fall season.

00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:28.720
So we're inching closer to the postseason in baseball, and we're just kicking off the NFL season.

00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:36.480
Do you think, where do you think the NFL is right now as just a league in terms of reputation?

00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:42.320
And if I'm using a scale of measurement, trust, how does the public feel about the NFL?

00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:42.879
Wow.

00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:55.279
I think one thing that we've found out with some of the scandals that there have been in the NFL, whether they've been team-related, player related, owner-related, whatever the case may be, is that they're somewhat impervious and the ratings don't really dip.

00:09:55.279 --> 00:10:00.480
It's great to have a Taylor Swift bump, but regardless, it's just as popular as it's ever been.

00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:01.600
The numbers are through the roof.

00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:03.039
The Super Bowl always does great.

00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.600
Even when people have issues, we talk about the whole kneeling thing during the national anthem in the book.

00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:11.759
And sure, that was a difficult time, and it really was a great political divide.

00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:13.600
But people didn't stop watching.

00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:15.600
And if they did, they're back to watching now.

00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:20.080
I think reputationally, they're always gonna have their challenges, the NFL.

00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:22.399
It just seems to be the nature of the beast for them.

00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:26.159
But I will never bet against them not being able to weather the storm.

00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:30.639
Well, you said something very telling there in betting against them.

00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:36.080
What is the influence of or impact of gambling on sports right now?

00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:41.039
We actually spoke to Bob Cossas about this, who has an interesting background on his personal life about this.

00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:43.679
And look, there's so much going on right now.

00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:54.720
Interesting, right now, what we're really seeing is Adam Silver, who of all the commissioners of the major sports has probably been the one that's been the most proactive in this area and spoken well about it from the day he became commissioner in I think 2014.

00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:59.360
And he's still talking about it because he advocated very early on for the legalization.

00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:02.960
And of course, with cell phones now, it's easier than ever.

00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:06.559
And of course, the argument is that make it legal and we could control it better.

00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:08.960
That seems to be working because they're catching guys now.

00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:12.000
Jonte Porter, a basketball player, was banned for life.

00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:14.320
It's these watchdog groups that are out there.

00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:16.639
Specifically, prop bets are the biggest issue.

00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:18.799
Like where a guy's talking about his personal stats.

00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:21.600
We've seen it extend now into the NCAA recently.

00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:27.200
There's talk of minimizing some of the things that there could be prop bets on because it could be a little bit overkill.

00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:29.679
Do we have to take every single pitch in a baseball game?

00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:30.399
Is it going to be a ball?

00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:31.440
Is it going to be a strike?

00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.840
It becomes too easy for the players to manipulate without even changing the outcome of the game.

00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:40.399
But years ago, when it was illegal, it used to be point shaving and throwing games, throwing the World Series.

00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:50.080
Now it's just what seemingly is an innocuous little thing that should go under the radar, except it's not going under the radar because there's these watchdog groups who are picking up on it straight away.

00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:52.159
So it's all come to a head now.

00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.879
I really think that gambling in terms of reputation, it's just a minefield for sports.

00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:01.840
And I think we're going to see a lot of crises related to that.

00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:13.039
Yeah, they're going to have to untangle it because we've it's it's sometimes it seems like we've come so far since Pete Rose and the gambling scandal back then, but then we also haven't.

00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:31.759
So I just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on a Pete Rose and a Hall and much like some of the other guys we've spoken about, I think time softens things a little bit, and as the generations turn over, I could pull in somebody from our office here who's a late 20s sports fan who, if you explain the Pete Rose thing to him, he'd probably just shrug his shoulders.

00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.600
And it's not because he's indifferent, he's just like, yeah, that doesn't sound like so.

00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:40.399
I think he might get in posthumously, which probably a lot of people would have thought was always going to be the case.

00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:51.200
Sure, when you weigh it against other things, but first we thought Shohei Otani was going to be a Pete Rose situation until it sort of seemed like the interpreter was the sole bad guy in all this.

00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:55.039
Well, I have to ask you about that because that's where immediately where my head went.

00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:58.399
You work in a lot of sports in the industry, so you're deeper in it.

00:12:58.399 --> 00:12:59.679
That's the circle that you're in.

00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:01.759
What is the truth behind the matter?

00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:07.919
I mean, it felt at the time the interpreter was the shield, but then again, now we have Alex Cora at the Red Sox.

00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:12.799
But no, it just happened where he the pitcher where he threw the ball at his catcher.

00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:14.240
Okay, but I know what you mean.

00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:14.399
Yeah.

00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:17.279
Yeah, but in the response, we had the interpreter.

00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:18.320
And how interesting.

00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.039
We said no, I apologized, everything was fine.

00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:25.200
But I thought for sure that the interpreter was just the smokescreen, the straw man.

00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:26.480
But was there anything more behind?

00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.519
But though Tani, he's been vindicated legally, right?

00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:30.720
So we have to go by that.

00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:33.679
Maybe it's not completely what we've been led to believe now.

00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:34.799
I mean, it at you're right.

00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:40.159
At the start, it seemed like, okay, could this guy be that oblivious to his finances?

00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:43.360
He didn't realize he was missing 16 million and this guy was just wiping glue.

00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:44.399
It sounds a little fishy.

00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:47.679
But listen, what a lot of people measure these things by the results they see.

00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:54.480
Watani may be sort of machine-like, but he's a human being, and you would just think that it would affect his performance.

00:13:54.480 --> 00:14:00.960
Well, God, maybe he just compartmentalizes better than any athlete who ever lived, but he had a stellar year last year.

00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:04.399
If he had a guilty conscience, it sure didn't show up in his performance.

00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:06.480
So I think that helped a lot.

00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:08.799
That perception that, like, this must be the case.

00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:13.759
Maybe he's just so married to his job, is not paying attention, trusted this guy implicitly.

00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:20.559
Maybe he's just guilty of bad judgment, gave this guy the keys to his kingdom and couldn't trust him because it turned out the guy was an inveterate gambler.

00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:21.600
Maybe that's all it is.

00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:24.000
I guess you have to give him the benefit of the doubt, though, for the most part.

00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:34.080
But you know, Molly, it was so fascinating to follow that case in real time because of exactly what you're saying, that everybody thought it was one way in the beginning and it moved so fast.

00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:36.080
And that's a big crisis thing, too.

00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:42.080
We see a lot of it, you really don't know what the facts are at the beginning, and you just have to withhold judgment on certain things.

00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:46.000
But if you're doing crisis communications, you have to make sure you have the facts straight.

00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.720
But with sports, because sports, I look at it as a monoculture.

00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:55.039
You have your fans and you have your diehard fans and you have the money.

00:14:55.039 --> 00:15:00.000
It seems like so many of the issues fall to the side, whether it's in fault.

00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:07.840
So whether it's gambling or knocking on a garbage can like the Astros did to the Red Sox and the Yankees.

00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:09.519
Okay, I'll give you Yankees.

00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:26.639
But there seems like in so many cases, they get passes because unlike other people, like politicians or celebrities or people in the public eye, they don't directly impact people, but people love their athletes and they don't want to see anything negative about their athletes.

00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:30.159
So they tend to skirt, they get by a lot of times.

00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:36.480
So maybe why he doesn't have a guilty conscience, because maybe a lot of athletes don't see anything wrong with it either.

00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:43.759
Yeah, a lot of star athletes or any professional athletes have a little bit of arrested development because they've been on a pedestal since they were probably a young teenager.

00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:44.879
They stood out so much.

00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:49.360
One of the things we talk about in the book is what makes a sports crisis different than your average crisis.

00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:52.320
And what is it is that it's the deity of sports stars.

00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:55.440
It's just that their reality is a little bit different than the rest of us.

00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.879
And they are given passes because they're beloved.

00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:00.080
It's passion, right?

00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.399
Is like probably the first reason that I always talk about.

00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:06.399
Is you just don't see emotions like this elicited in everyday life.

00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:14.799
When you've rooted for a team your whole life and you believe in them and they're about to win, and their biggest rival destroys them right in the end, it's an opera.

00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:16.559
It's tragic and it's brutal.

00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:18.559
That transcends real life.

00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:20.480
People put so much stock into that.

00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:26.720
It works both ways because on the one hand, okay, say you're the crisis counselor to some big athlete.

00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:28.559
You say, Well, I don't have to do much.

00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:31.360
People love them so much, you can get away with anything.

00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:36.879
But on the other hand, you'll be sleeping at the switch because after a while that stuff might catch up with you.

00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:38.320
So it works both ways.

00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:46.960
Do you think there are any athletes right now who are more that scandal or problems seem to follow them that it might catch up with them?

00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:48.639
Is there anyone on your radar right now?

00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:50.799
I think anyone, no one specific.

00:16:50.799 --> 00:17:02.559
This is why a lot of athletes are closed up, because they know that the more they open up and the more they put themselves out there and show their real personality, the more open they are to criticism that could hurt endorsements could help too.

00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:03.279
It depends.

00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:07.839
But I think the showier and the flashier you are, the more the spotlight's gonna be on you.

00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:09.279
And maybe you thrive on that.

00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:10.880
Everyone's gonna have missteps.

00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:16.559
And unfortunately, we know the discourse in the country at the moment, I hate to say this, but I think in a lot of ways the bar has been lowered.

00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:23.519
People will look at things now that maybe 20, 30, or certainly 40, 50 years ago were moments where you said, Oh, God, that's terrible.

00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:26.799
And now it's like then that that's not too bad by today's standards.

00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:28.000
I think that's really true.

00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.759
That's affecting the gambling issue.

00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:30.160
Yeah.

00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:43.119
Another example to bring it back to my home team here, the Red Sox, I think it was last season when Jaron Duran was playing outfield and he's being heckled, which he is a player who's been heckled more than the average player out there.

00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:50.400
And then there was a homophobic slur that came out, and that made big instant news, instant news.

00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:58.480
But Jaron Duran as a person showed such vulnerability because he was saying, I struggle when I don't do well.

00:17:58.480 --> 00:17:59.279
I struggle.

00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:05.519
And the Red Sox worked with Netflix to come out with the series The Clubhouse, where they sat down and they interviewed him.

00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:07.920
And I know, Jim, this is painful as a Yankees fan.

00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:10.319
Go on and on about the Red Sox.

00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:16.240
Yeah, there is some bias there, but I would say this too, even if this was like an Aaron Judge story, though the guy's not faulting right now.

00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:23.359
But for someone to say, hey, I am struggling, they put him in a different position, and he's so open and vulnerable with his struggles.

00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:31.039
He was able to turn around, which really a slur at that time when it happened, would be very challenging for a team.

00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.079
They would have to suspend for a significant amount of time.

00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:39.039
But there's something about him showing that vulnerability and just watching him on Netflix with the clubhouse.

00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:40.480
I think there's something there.

00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:46.720
Again, you can be the bold athlete, but when you show what's happening, and here's actually another story.

00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:58.880
Cade Povich, the pitcher for the Baltimore Orioles, in the past few weeks put out a tweet on X with a screen grab showing what people were sending to his wife.

00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:02.319
Horrible, horrible commentary.

00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:06.480
And he put that out there to show people what it was like, the grief that they get.

00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:09.119
Now, full disclosure, I know Kate, I know his wife.

00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:10.960
I was at their wedding, but I was shocked.

00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:14.240
I mean, I saw that on a news clip, not from them and friends.

00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.119
But again, I don't think you would see that a couple of years ago.

00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:21.519
But here's a young player who's so new to the majors coming out and saying something.

00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:26.240
I mean, certainly pre-social media, that stuff might have been voiced at the ballpark anywhere around the country.

00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.599
And obviously, some fan bases are a little bit more passionate and edgy than others.

00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:32.400
But now there is a trail, like an electronic trail.

00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:38.000
So they might be anonymous, but that stuff is there for people to see and for a guy like that to put out.

00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:39.359
So I think that's a big difference.

00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:46.559
And obviously we could spend oodles of time on social media, but I think to your point about Jaron Duran, sure, like a Netflix series humanizes him, right?

00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.519
I mean, that's something we as crisis people talk about all the time, right?

00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:55.839
Is showing that side of them and realizing that he has had mental health struggles and it took him a while, but now he's really peaking.

00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:06.799
He's the type of guy you could root for, as opposed to just a guy you want to root against or be mean towards, or who unfortunately had a moment where he let the pressure get to him and responded in a way that he shouldn't have.

00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:08.799
But that's what second chances are for, right?

00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:14.640
The other thing about Duran in terms of the first incident, the slur early on, is he really apologized.

00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:24.079
It was a good straightforward apology, and apologies are a big part of this, and it's just shocking how bad so many companies and organizations are at it.

00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:29.599
They are at it, but there's also people will make apologies and people will dodge as well.

00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:35.680
Just curious your thoughts on if we were to look at the NFL and the CTE issue.

00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:38.160
That's one that's being dodged.

00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:44.079
So it does that ever catch up with the NFL or will they keep giving it the Heisman and keep out running it?

00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:45.359
Like, what do you think about issues like that?

00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:47.839
It's the latter, it's the Heisman where they're just going to dodge it.

00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:55.599
It's not that they haven't spoken about it, but again, it's not the type of thing where anyone's going to want their brand of football changed.

00:20:55.599 --> 00:21:03.440
We already hear people complaining about how football's gone too soft and with the new kickoff rules and protecting the quarterback and cradling them.

00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:08.160
Clearly, the core football fan wants the rough and tumble game they grew up with.

00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.480
Can't deny the CTE stuff, right?

00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:11.599
It's omnipresent.

00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:15.599
Now, when you see the guys who do wear those extra big helmets, you're reminded of it.

00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:17.200
At least I am when I watch now.

00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:20.000
So I think things like that visually just bring it to the surface.

00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:24.079
It's no coincidence, I think, that you're going to see like flag football as an Olympic event.

00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:28.480
Sure, that's to grow the game, but it's also a way to play football that's a lot safer.

00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.279
Who knows, 20, 30 years or more beyond?

00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:34.559
Could there be a scenario where it's flag football and not contact?

00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:35.200
I don't know.

00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:41.599
But I think the present-day fan, a long time lifetime fan, struggles with that if they were to even bother to think about it.

00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:51.119
Like, I want need the brutality, but we don't want these guys dying before they're 50 and suffering these horrible lives that they sometimes have to endure because of head injuries.

00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:52.240
Right, exactly.

00:21:52.240 --> 00:22:03.279
So now moving from the athlete itself, and then we talked about the different major league groups behind it, now thinking it from more of a corporate point of view.

00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:09.279
You talk about in your book, the CEO takes us behind the scenes of a gun sale crisis.

00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:15.440
I bet a lot of people would forget about this, but in 2019 with gun sales.

00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:26.799
And in your book, you point out after Sandy Hook and after Stoneham Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, which has produced a lot of baseball players that high school, including Roman Anthony.

00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:31.279
But that was a case where Dick Sporting Goods had to sit on a side.

00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:33.279
So what do you remember about that?

00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:34.480
Writing about that in your book?

00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:38.960
Yeah, we have some stories in there about what we call sports adjacent companies.

00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:41.440
Dick Sporting Goods, it's a retailer.

00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:47.680
We just thought that was a good example of the CEO said we're gonna cut down on the gun sales.

00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:54.960
And he said in an interview at first, we were just gonna put out a press release about it, but then they realized they needed a much bigger strategy.

00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.759
So the big thing in crisis is people just don't plan.

00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:00.000
They just hope nothing bad's ever gonna happen.

00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:06.079
Here was a situation where he knew they were doing something controversial and they had to be ready for it.

00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:07.599
And he really did that.

00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:09.839
You know, at the time, and I remember covering it.

00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:10.480
It worked.

00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:15.279
It came with a lot of bumps, certainly along the way, but fell on their value system.

00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:23.279
And people, I find the public from a public sentiment point of view, when you go with your values, you're going to get stakeholders who are going to follow you through that.

00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:26.240
Which doesn't mean that you're not going to lose some revenue and stuff.

00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:26.640
Right.

00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:27.599
Yeah.

00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:29.279
You're going to take your hits with that.

00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:36.960
And another example that you highlight in your book as well, titled here, Dodgers Try to Dodge a Bullet.

00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:46.559
This was such an interesting story about LGBTQ plus pride night in June for the Dodgers.

00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:49.839
So, Tom, remind us about that story.

00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:53.119
That's actually the opposite of the Dick Sporting Goods story.

00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:58.400
This was back in 2023, LGBTQ night for the Dodgers.

00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:02.880
So they were going to honor this particular group, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.

00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:04.799
But then there was a backlash.

00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:10.000
And because the sisters, they do demonstrations sometimes in nuns' outfits.

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.960
And so Catholic groups saw this as an affront.

00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:16.319
And the Dodgers eventually reneged on the invitation.

00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:19.839
But then, of course, you got backlash from the gay groups.

00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:23.359
And then to the point where the Dodgers eventually said, We will honor that.

00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:24.640
But they went so back and forth.

00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:31.359
Our point was all that was predictable, that you were again in crisis, you always upset somebody.

00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:39.119
So they should have been aware that it was going to be an issue, especially at that time you had the I was a Mulrooney Dylan Mulvania.

00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:44.880
It was a hot topic around that time.

00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:48.559
So they really should have been more aware if that was going to happen.

00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:53.119
I think that's what surprised me the most because you're absolutely right, Tom.

00:24:53.119 --> 00:25:05.440
We were in the throes of the Budweiser crisis, which started in March during March Madness, when Budweiser came out with that special can, included Dylan Mulvaney in the campaign.

00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:06.880
So that's where it first started.

00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.880
And then it trickled into April, where it absolutely exploded.

00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:15.599
And it was still a topic of conversation because, again, it brought in values.

00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:22.319
And Budweiser, instead of standing by it, they absolutely cut the woman whose idea it was to do.

00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:27.440
And then the CEO went on a victory lap on CBS morning to talk about why they did it.

00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:37.920
At CBS, Gail King sat down with that CEO for a long time and gave them the platform to say, we are sticking by our one stakeholder here.

00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:39.920
And it was very obvious who that was.

00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.119
It was the typical Budweiser beer drinker.

00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:44.319
So they didn't care.

00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:50.480
But then the Dodgers skidded right into this in June during Pride Month, which made it really complicated.

00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:56.559
And why I found that crisis interesting in particular, because yes, they flip-flopped and they had a lot of pressure.

00:25:56.559 --> 00:26:07.440
And if you remember, you you talk about in your book, it was Marco Rubio who was one of the names behind that put a lot of pressure because, and this goes deep into it, but this is a part of it.

00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:08.720
It's the Dodgers.

00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.200
I I was imagining at the time the front office.

00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:16.559
And not everybody in the front office, like being hyper aware of what happens online.

00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:21.279
But then you have still the young guys and the front office, young people who know what's happening online.

00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:28.480
And it was someone who made that decision as someone who's not online savvy to know about that blowback.

00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:30.240
And then they made that first decision.

00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:42.400
But what I also found interesting and just about that baseball aspect is yes, they satisfied the one arm of the Catholics, the Marco Rubio conservative Catholic, which is what we have now.

00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:53.359
But what they abandoned and didn't think about were the other side of the Catholics, a lot of their fan base, the Hispanic fan base, a lot of their players, they completely ignored them.

00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:56.160
And that's where a lot of the backlash came from as well.

00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:58.000
And so what happened, Tom?

00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:00.000
What did the Dodgers do then?

00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:07.119
Like you say, it was a flip-flop, and you have all these stakeholders, and you're just not looking at including politicians, right?

00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:08.480
Like Michael Rubio.

00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:14.079
I think sometimes people do this in such a bubble, they don't think about what the reaction's gonna be.

00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.880
Yeah, and they had to flip-flop twice, which is a bad look, which is a very bad look.

00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:23.759
Okay, one more because this is more current, and this is gonna bring us back into the NFL.

00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:35.200
So just yesterday, I was reading my headlines, and there pops Tom Brady, who's still considered in these parts of New England, like the GOAT, and then he abandoned us.

00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:39.440
And now there's some conflicts there because he's another guy.

00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:41.200
Everybody loves Tom Brady.

00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:44.880
You knew that he was just gonna walk into a bucket full of money.

00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:49.200
But Jim, what kind of conflict is Tom Brady dealing with right now?

00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:52.880
Well, this is pretty interesting, and I'll be as impartial as I can.

00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:59.839
I mean, I I I I you know, as my giants beat him twice in the Super Bowl, I could I could speak comfortably on his own.

00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:01.119
But I do consider him the GOAT.

00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:02.319
He absolutely is.

00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:04.160
I think you're crazy if you don't think that he is.

00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:14.480
So there's this issue where he's a minority owner in the Los Angeles Raiders, and he's of course also the lead analyst for Fox Sports and Sunday football games.

00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:22.880
They treaded lightly on this last year, last season, and he wasn't allowed to be in person at any facilities of other teams for pre-production meetings and things of that nature.

00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:28.880
They've some reason sort of rolled that back a little bit now and said we could be there remotely by Zoom or whatever.

00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:29.920
So here's what happened.

00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:36.799
Monday night, the Raiders are playing and he's there in the coach's box with a coach's headset on.

00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:40.319
Now, everyone knows he's a minority owner with the Raiders.

00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:44.160
So optics are terrible at a minimum, right?

00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:50.000
But the thing is, okay, the the NFL statement is what really sort of made me laugh of how they dealt with this.

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:55.839
They said there are no policies that prohibit an owner from sitting in a coach's booth or wearing a headset during a game.

00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:00.640
Well, he's more than just an owner, he is the lead analyst for Fox Sports.

00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:13.920
And as fact would have it, the Raiders are gonna be playing the Chiefs, whose game he called the day before and presumably would have had access that not everyone gets because he gets to question them and talk to them.

00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:21.599
And listen, if you listen to GMs and team owners, some anonymously, some out front, it's sort of split, you know, where they say it's not a big deal.

00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:23.599
We we're not gonna give him the keys to the kingdom.

00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:29.359
If that's just a game of we're not gonna tell him anything, then that doesn't help his broadcasting credentials.

00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:44.799
But the problem with all this is that it feeds into the conspiracy theory that Tom Brady's on like this lofty level and enjoys this rarefied air that no one else gets, and that these are Tom Brady rules, because I'm pretty sure if it was anybody else, this just wouldn't be happening.

00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:50.799
So look, he could glean information from talking to these other teams and pass on to raise, and he's an uber competitive guy.

00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:52.559
It's a big part of what made him so great.

00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:57.200
How are we just trusting that he's gonna resist the urge to pass something along that he heard?

00:29:57.200 --> 00:29:58.319
It's a real problem.

00:29:58.319 --> 00:29:59.839
And as long as people keep complaining.

00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:00.640
Complaining about it.

00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:02.400
I'm not quite sure how the NFL is going to deal with it.

00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:04.160
I don't think they've dealt with it well so far.

00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:10.240
Even the CEO of Fox Sports was kind of we're not talking about that at a conference here in New York earlier this week.

00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:11.759
They got a lot of figuring out to do.

00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:17.519
I said yesterday at the gym, as the non-sports person, I don't see how this isn't a conflict.

00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:18.640
It sounds crazy.

00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:24.559
Is there anyone comparable to a Tom Brady where we could compare it like A-B testing?

00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:25.519
There really isn't.

00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:30.319
When you think of owners, commentator, big money, big star players.

00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:31.519
Or anyone like a techie.

00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.039
I think this is breaking new ground.

00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.200
I don't know that there's ever been a situation like this.

00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:36.319
It could pop up again.

00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:40.240
You could have a LeBron James who's expressed an interest in being a team owner one day.

00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.079
Maybe he'll get into broadcasting as well.

00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:42.640
I don't know.

00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:47.440
But obviously, if you're the GOAT, that means you're only around once a generation in a sport.

00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.039
So there's really not many people.

00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:51.359
There's not much precedence for something like this.

00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:57.680
That's part of the reason why I find it fascinating, because this is going to pave the way for the future, I think, in similar situations when they do arrive.

00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:58.160
Yeah.

00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:10.720
So looking back at all these cases from Aaron Rogers to Brett Favre to Tom Brady, what's the common thread you see in sports crises or sports issues that make or break a response?

00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:19.680
I think it's a lot of the regular, I'll call it, crisis rules do apply as far as timeliness and gathering all the facts.

00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:24.319
A lot of times, as we know, the first response is usually bungled.

00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:26.160
It's not handled well in a lot of crises.

00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:27.920
I think a lot of that still applies.

00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:35.680
You have to navigate through social media and what the player might be ready to say or willing to say as opposed to what their reps want him to not to morph off into basketball.

00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:41.759
I think we're seeing something right now with Kawhi Leonard, who's been accused of accepting money to go around the salary cap in basketball.

00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:42.960
He hasn't said anything.

00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:46.720
The Clippers, his team have spoken, the league has spoken.

00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:47.759
He hasn't said anything.

00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:52.720
And he's not going to have that luxury in a few weeks when training camp and media day start up again for the NBA.

00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:53.599
But I don't know.

00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:58.640
For me, I kind of look at it and say, if I'm not guilty, I'm screaming it from the mountaintops.

00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:04.079
And whether it's true or not, I think this helps him help people believe that he might be guilty.

00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:06.799
Again, that's the optics because he hasn't said a word yet.

00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:07.279
Right.

00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:08.319
Yeah, that's a really good point.

00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:09.519
Tom, do you have any thoughts on that?

00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:16.960
I think it is very similar to just crises outside the sports world that the main issue is people don't prepare for it.

00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:22.640
It's really like, why should I put so much energy into preparing for something that might never happen?

00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:23.920
So that's the big issue.

00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:27.359
So when you think about preparing, I have a question for both of you.

00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:40.480
Since you both work in public relations crisis management, what advice would you give if you had the ear of a new athlete, someone who's a big college star, it's starting to grow freshman year, maybe they're coming in.

00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:41.440
You sit down with them.

00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:42.559
What advice would you give them?

00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:45.359
We have this concept called the credibility bank.

00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:51.839
And that just meaning that one thing that really helps you with a crisis is to have a good reputation in the first place.

00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.279
It really helps you withstand a negative situation.

00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:57.599
That would be one thing to focus on that.

00:32:57.839 --> 00:32:58.480
Yeah, absolutely.

00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:05.440
I would add just keeping your eyes wide open and head on a swivel, be conscious that everything you say can be fodder for the media.

00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:07.599
There's always a camera or a mic on.

00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:08.720
And to just be conscious.

00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:16.319
This sounds kind of silly because Jim Agathew, I mentioned earlier a boss has this theory of like putting out social posts late at night when you're maybe you're not thinking clearly.

00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:25.759
Just wait till the light of day a lot of times to express certain thoughts, especially if there are things that could be seen as controversial or that would alienate some people.

00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:31.359
Maybe best to not send it like at 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock at night when you may not be thinking as clear as you were earlier in the day.

00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:32.319
That's great advice.

00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:34.559
Okay, so here's my last question.

00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:40.240
So here is someone else, and Jim, this will be a good segue between the Patriots and the Giants, actually.

00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:44.400
What advice would you give to Bill Belichick?

00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:45.440
Right now?

00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:46.160
Wow.

00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:53.200
Uh you know, he is there's so few guys in in sports since media has been a thing that are like him.

00:33:53.200 --> 00:34:06.400
Maybe a Greg Popovit, but he is so unique in the way that he's conducted himself over the years, that sort of animosity mixed with brilliant coaching and just sort of not really caring who he's pissed off.

00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:10.639
He's maybe purposefully and not purposefully just cultivated his image.

00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:11.760
What did I tell him now?

00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:13.679
Go win, continue to be a winner.

00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:17.360
Like what you've committed to this college thing, this experiment, I'll call it.

00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:20.400
And uh look, the whole stuff with the girlfriend, that's a whole nother thing.

00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:22.719
There's so many different angles on that.

00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.039
But at the end of the day, winning cures a lot.

00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:37.760
If he could make North Carolina into a respectable football program, and I don't think it's gonna happen in this one year, one season, if he wants to keep going into his mid to late 70s and coach him to a national championship, well, God bless him.

00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:39.039
Tom, do you have anything that?

00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:47.519
I know you say you're not not a big football fan, but certainly you have to be familiar with what's happening with the legacy of Bill Belichick and with his girlfriend.

00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:52.159
Yeah, actually, I only followed it a little bit, so I'm just gonna agree with what Jim said.

00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:53.440
You're gonna agree.

00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:04.239
I think it's interesting because here you have someone who has built a legacy, and that's what you talk about, how you bank that credibility and you kind of bank that legacy and you see someone slowly chip away at it.

00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:05.760
I mean, step by step.

00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:17.360
And I also Bill Belchak plays by different media rules that allowed him to get away with saying nothing and just kind of grunting through the pressers, post-game pressers.

00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:19.679
But right now, they're asking harder questions.

00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:27.599
So when he wants to sell a book and he's sitting down for a CBS television interview, you have to play by media rules and you have to speak.

00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:34.880
And they have the right to ask any question, especially about the news that's being talked about right now in the form of his much younger girlfriend.

00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:35.519
All right.

00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:40.800
Well, Jim and Tom, thank you so much for spending the time speaking with me about this topic.

00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:52.480
And we could go on about the topic of sports forever, but your book, Sports, Crisis, Communications, Cases and Controversy, it's a great book and it melds both of your backgrounds together beautifully.

00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:55.920
So I encourage anyone who's interested in both to check it out.

00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:57.119
Appreciate you having us.